Home Forums ITI and GE Technical Questions Mix a glass break with a motion?

This topic contains 8 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  stevebrtx 4 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #9097

    froggy47
    Participant

    I want to have at least one upstairs & one downstairs motion sensor. I was also thinking of one up and one down glass break (or at least a down glass break).Is there any problem having this mix to "back up" the window/door sensors?I tried to search the forum, sorry if I missed it. :)

    #42911

    ABLE1
    Participant

    If by the word "mix" you mean you want to put a glass break and a motion on the same zone then it won't work on wireless devices.

    If by the word "mix" you mean to place a hardwired glass break and a hardwired motion on the same zone, it will work but not recommended.

    If by the word "mix" you mean to place the glass break and the motion in the same room.  Not a problem.

    ABLE1

    #42912

    froggy47
    Participant

    I meant in the same room.

    I am confused about your reference to zone though.

    The GE simon xt has (many) different sensors, and it has recommended sensor groups (such as Type 10 – entry/exit delay, type 17 – instant interior motion/sound, and many others)

    I have only used those two mentioned above.

    It has type 13 window instant perimeter which I was going to add next.

    I haven't found any reference to zones in the ge install or owner manual.

    Is "zone" the same as "type" on the ge ?

    Thanks.

    If type = zone

    then I do have a type 15 instant interior pir motion

    and

    type 17 instant interior pir motion and sound

    so I could put the two (sound and motion) on two different types.
    :)

    #42913

    ABLE1
    Participant

    Unless you have a different install manual the reference to the word zone is in my install manual on pages 14 one time, page 18 five times, page 20 three times, page 29 two times, page 57 six times and page 90 only once. 

    I may have missed some.

    Each sensor is considered a zone of a given type.

    ABLE1

    #42924

    stevebrtx
    Member

    Able1, being new myself, I'm not sure I understand the semantics here. I take "zone" to be a physical area being "monitored". I have an area on the terraza with two Optex sensors, one in group 16 so it alone can be armed for "motions" and the other is group 13, so when both motions and doors & windows are armed they're both looking at the same zone and it seems to work, what am I missing?

    #42926

    froggy47
    Participant

    Hi Able1 & thanks.

    My install manual 600-1054-95R does not say zone on any of those pages. It's also not in the table of contents or index.

    So any reference by the very helpful pros on the forum to a "zone" for a diy who is installing a Simon xt is going to be confusing to say the least.

    To me a non pro a zone is like a room or a hall, but I am thinking it has a more specific definition in the alarm business.

    Maybe one of the pro's could download the CURRENT Simon XT install manual (600-1054-95R with a number below that of 466-2265E) and check it out.

    Page 7 has device names (indoor motion sensor) and recommended sensor groups (17- intrusion, 25 – chime)

    The same page has a table with the type (which appears to be the same as sensor group), name/application,siren type,delay,restoral,supervisory,active in arming levels.

    So maybe group=type=zone?

    It's hard to give/get help when the owners install manual uses different terminology.

    :)

    #42935

    ABLE1
    Participant
    "What we have here………………. is a FAILURE …. to communicate!!!"

    I am sure that all the moderators and tech here are wondering how I am going to dig myself out of this hole that I am in…………………………………….. ::)  Well here goes, this may get long but I will do the best I can.  

    Ok Ok so there seems to be many versions of documentation.  Actually, I should say translations of documentation.

    I have said it for years that the programmer should never ever be allowed to write the documentation, period.

    Alright class let us all go back in time ……………. back to BWS time.

    BWS stands for Before Wireless Stuff.  This was when life was simple, when men were men and women……………….. well you get the idea.  It was sometime during the last millenium.

    In the hardwired world of old a ZONE was considered as a what ever you connected to two terminals on the mother board.  Such as zone 1 was terminals 1 and 2 —  Zone 2 was terminals 2 and 3  – Zone 3 was terminals 4 and 5  Zone 4 was terminals 5 and 6.  

    Now you may say; Well that's dumb and does not make sense.  Reading it the way I typed it can be confusing but if you knew that terminals 2 – 3 – 5 were ground or common terminals and you only need to have 3 terminals for two zones then it should make some sense.

    Now the zones could have whatever connected to it such as door contact, motion detector, glassbreak, photo beam, smoke detector, heat detector, high water, low water, tamper, water flow, low air pressure, high water pressure, etc. etc. etc.

    So if the front door contact was connected to zone 1 terminals then zone 1 was considered the front door.  If the installer decided to wire the front door and the side door in series and connect to zone 1 then those two doors were considered to be on zone 1.

    If eight smoke detectors were daisy chained to zone 2 then those smokes were considered the smoke "loop" and were on zone 2.  Or zone 2 was the smoke loop.

    Now the zones can be programmed to have a difference response based upon how or what the device is.  If the desire is to have zone 1 to be connected to the front door and the front door is to be the entry/exit then that zone would be programmed as a delay zone giving the user enough time to get to the keypad and disarm the system after opening the door.  This is just reversed when arming so that you can get out the door before the system is fully armed.

    The response on a perimeter door would be instant not delayed.  A motion detector would be programmed to be instant if triggered first and delayed if a delay door is triggered first.  A holdup button would be programmed as a 24 hour zone and not ever be disarmed.  A smoke detector would be program as a fire zone so that it would trigger the fire siren not the burg siren.  And so on and so on.

    We are working on hardwired here and hardwired system were here first and wireless came second in chronological history.

    So now we get into the wireless stuff.  To keep it simple if you have a single transmitter that does one function such as send a signal when the front door opens it is programmed into or learned into the system on a particular zone.  How that zone is responded to is consider the TYPE or GROUP.  This depends on the manufacture/programmer as to what they want to call it but it boils down to what kind of response you would want for a particular sensor.  You are telling the system what you want to happen at the time it is tripped by the device that is protecting that point.

    Having a room with 4 windows, 2 doors, 1 glassbreak and one motion detector can easily be done.  The windows could be perimeter zones, the doors could be delay doors, the glassbreak could be interior instant, and the motion could follow the action of the doors but be instant if a door is not opened or tripped first.

    Now with the Simon XT the terminology may be a nuts.  I never installed one and it is unlikely I ever will.  For what it is worth I am looking at the install manual 600-1054-95R which it the same ID as what you have but it is in a .pdf format.  All the zone references are there when I did a search of the word zone.

    Ok so does everyone have a better idea of what a zone is or should be as it relates to the alarm world??

    I truly hope so.

    Class dismissed.   ;D

    ABLE1

    #42941

    froggy47
    Participant

    Thanks, your post is very clear.

    I don't know why all the "zone" words are not in my install manual. It may be a manual revision issue?

    Maybe the direct to consumer manual is different?

    There was a "grayed out" manual part number that was 466-2265E

    In any event the device/sensor has "recommended sensor groups". These are formerly called zones I believe.

    Each "recommended sensor group" has certain specific characteristics regarding the siren type (intrusion, silent, chime, three beep) the delay (programmable within certain specified ranges), whether the sensor group is active in different arming levels (disarm, doors&windows, motions, doors&windows&motions) and a couple more I am not yet familiar with (restoral & supervisory).

    For my original question I think a motion and a glass break could both be happy on the same sensor group (zone) so far as I  want both to be intrusion siren and instant but not both the same arming levels – so I might want to group (zone) them different. I need to ck the install manual for that.

    All the vendors I have looked at seem to aim for full retail pricing on the sensors, anyone have a referral to a more wholesale/bulk vendor or maybe one that has a discount if you buy a dozen sensors or if the order goes over a certain dollar amount.

    To do my house right I need a lot more sensors, about 12 or 14 door/window and I need extra magnets so I can set windows part open in the summer & still have the window alarmed. I have not found any vendor that has the extra magnets sold separate.

    :)

    #42949

    stevebrtx
    Member

    Yes, the disconnect is in the manuals, the one that comes in the box is dated Nov 2007, the PDF download is June 2007 and there are differences, but thanks for the history lesson, that makes sense.

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